Talk:Pierre Boulez

External links

I propose to remove what's left of the External Links section to reduce word count. There used to be a pretty extensive set of links (to recordings, videos etc) which I added in gradually but another editor removed a year or so ago. I can't say I miss it and I don't think what's left adds much. If a reader wants to dig deeper they can refer to the extensive list of sources - or just google. I'll wait a couple of days in case anyone wants to object. Dmass (talk) 11:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

External links sections don't actually affect the word count, but I'm all in favour of looking to trim them in any case. They have a way of breeding (often with minor and peripheral links put in by people with vested interests, chiefly interns in college libraries plugging their collections, however minor). I've just looked at the ELs chez Boulez, and in my opinion they'd none of 'em be missed. The BBC one doesn't work, the IRCAM one is suprisingly superficial, the German audio files are unlikely to be of much use in En.Wikipeda, AllMusic is of limited use so far as classical music is concerned, and I was surprised how little useful information there is on the Universal site. But I'm sure you're right to put this thread up for a few days in case anyone else has strongly contrary thoughts on the matter. Tim riley talk 19:53, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Since this conversation, a contributor who perhaps hadn't seen it, added back a new external links section. I still think it's not necessary for the reasons given above. Anyone object if I were to remove it? Dmass (talk) 09:34, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Good idea. Two commercial links, one link to an unreliable source, and if there's anything of substantial interest in the interviews it will be in the article already, or ought to be. Tim riley talk 11:52, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Restructuring towards FA

@Dmass & Tim riley, if we're looking towards FA, than perhaps some general restructering may be in order. Particularly, I find the sectioning, a bit confusing. Since the "Opera" and "Recording" portions are concerned with Boulez's conducting, they might be more suitable as subsections of conducting? If changed, we would probably move the final paragraph of the opera section elsewhere.

I find the performing section is a bit unnecessary. Boulez is not primarily known as a performer and indeed the first sentence does not identify him as such in any capacity. This would be a good place for trimming; the article currently sits at 11,065 words, a good 1065 above the recommended 10,000. This would certainly be brought up at FA, and detrimental to its prospects of passing. I would say the performing section should be either cut entirely, or trimmed and moved into the biography, either as text or a footnote – Aza24 (talk) 22:46, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

My apologies for not responding sooner, I've only just seen this. I agree about the performer section. Of course, a lot of conductors/composers are also pianists and occasionally perform in public but it's not central to their activity and Boulez didn't do it often - although coincidentally I met a friend the other day who was going to Boulez concerts before I started and heard him play the piano for the Debussy Mallarme songs as part of a BBCSO concert, and indeed the harpsichord in the fifth Brandenburg concerto! But I think you're right, it should come out. I'll leave it til the weekend in case anyone wants to object.

I'll have a think about the section point, it hadn't occurred to me, but it's certainly worth considering.

And Mr Riley, you'll be glad to hear the time has come. I'm taking a week off work at the beginning of October and I think it might be a good moment to put the article up for FA. I may need some guidance from you about the process. I'll try and do some more trimming in the meantime to get the word count down - although in my defence he did live for ninety years and had two major careers (compare Benjamin Britten...). Dmass (talk) 09:27, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Yours to command. Looking forward to it. Tim riley talk 11:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Glad to hear this. Please ping me when you go to PR/FAC. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you, both, that's very kind. Dmass (talk) 14:26, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

As to the length, you may possibly take comfort from the fact that the late Brian Boulton and I got Shaw though FAC at a whisker under 12,000 words. (Even that was a helluva squeeze, accomplished with much baring of teeth and friendly bickering.) Tim riley talk 16:20, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Apologies for the delay. I've actioned @Aza24's helpful suggestions above. The Performing section has now gone - I think better out altogether, as word count may be an issue. I've also converted the sections on Opera and Recording into sub-sections of the Conducting section, which I think works well. Strictly speaking there's a paragraph in the Opera section which is about PB's relationship with opera as a composer, but I still think it sits better here than it would elsewhere. Dmass (talk) 15:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

...although on reflection it could go into the Composition section under unfinished works... Dmass (talk) 10:05, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I’ve done this. I think it works fine. Let me know if you disagree. Dmass (talk) 19:28, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

@Aza24 / 43.230.207.79 (talk) 16:23, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Authorised compositions

Re:

Pierre Boulez: Complete Works, a 13-CD survey of all his authorised compositions.

Did Boulez write any unauthorised compositions? What is meant here? "officially published compositions", perhaps? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:07, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Good question! There's a remarkable new book (in French only at the moment), Catalogue illustré de l'oeuvre de Pierre Boulez, which is also a detailed chronology, a series of essays and a scrapbook of photographs, scores and documents.

It meticulously describes all the surviving compositions, including juvenilia, all the early versions of completed works, and drafts and sketches of unfinished works. The final count is 112 works.

As for the DG set of his works, although nearly all the works included in it are published, there are also earlier versions of some works which were published - and sometimes recorded - but which are not included in the set (e.g. Improvisation 3 sur Mallarmé).

There are many works which were completed, performed and withdrawn. Boulez previously permitted live recordings to be issued of some of them, but chose not to include them in the DG set (e.g. Polyphonie X and Poésie pour pouvoir, both of which are being performed this year).

The original DG set described itself as 'Complete Works' on the front and 'Work in Progress' on the back, neither of which was strictly true (which the accompanying booklet acknowledged). DG on its website now says the set the set 'presents a survey of the works he considered representative of his compositional art' (which is true, but awful). I think the closest analogy is something like the volumes of Collected Poems Auden put together, omitting some things he had published, revising others. Any suggestions welcome...

By the way, a question which has intrigued Boulezians is answered in the Catalogue: in what shape are the remaining orchestral Notations, which Boulez often said were 'nearly finished'? Apparently the answer is:

V - 41 pages of short score, very advanced in terms of notes and rhythm, no orchestration other than a few indications of instruments, no tempi, dynamics, articulation or phrasing;

VIII - 59 pages of short score, as above, beginning and end probably missing;

VI - the first 8 pages only;

XII - 12 pages of sketches.

Nothing for IX, X or XI.

Will any brave composer be given permission to attempt a performing version? Dmass (talk) 14:58, 6 April 2025 (UTC)